a blue P.subfusca????

[Eric Reynolds]

Hi Steevens,

They all are females of course....
Do you think that french breeder are so bad to compares with different sex ????

Take it easy my friend! You never said anything about the sex of the spiders, so how was I to know what was being compared?

Though looking at the patella, I'm still not convinced

Take care,

Eric

[Taki Tsonis]

As far as 'blueish' goes, how much of that do you think is down to pics of T's?
Here's 2 pics of my Singapore blue, the 1st one is with natural light (purple), and the second one is the very same spider minutes apart but with direct flash!





oh and btw, what a stunning T a P subfusca is!!

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Hi,

Just Spoke to Andy Smith, He ahs been told about this lowland form, and when he asked for deads (even saying if it was a new species it would be named after them,) they refused to send any specimen.

My question is : was Andy Smith given any specimens of this so-called LLform ?

take Bens pictures and take away all the colour so they are both a purple brown (like most alchohol specimens are) with nothing which shows very much of anything. (as the legs are all black on the underside well mostly).

How would you tell them apart?

That is the question, without colour how would you tell them apart?, is there enough differances which fall outside the normal range of variation within the species (taxonomically).

2 points :

- I spoke about carapace shape.What about this ? in particular clypeus width.
- What are the keys to distinguish Pokies from each others ? When I look at the diagnosis for P. tigrinawesseli (BTS Vol 21, n°3, pp86-87), it is a question of colors. But I repeat, I am no taxonomist, so take it as a remark and not an argument.

There have been light and dark forms in the hobby ever since they first came in, that is no secret, both comming from the same eggsac

OK, no problem, I also cannot see often 2 P. subfusca that look exactly the same.

So here is one for all you supporters for a "lowland" form as no one knows where these were collected (and no one will tell so this species can be studied in the wild)

I agree to say it would be very useful to have a field study in Sri Lanka. It is not impossible that, though from the same species, we discover a local population with it's own characteristics, is it ?

The gauntlet is down, if this is the new species as some people (looking for something new?) are saying, supply the specimens, and its named after you.

See my first comment. I have some difficulty to realize that no one (in particular from UK) could send any specimens of this so-called LF, they are numerous ! In case Pr Smith did not have any specimens, I am ready to send my single (mated) female, but the goal is absolutely not to have one's name for an hypothetic new species.
Bear in mind I retained your words (as those of Soren and other well qualified people), so I know it is highly unlikely that it be a new species. But this do not prevent from discussing about this (not these wonderful species.

Best regards,
Alex

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi,
My question is : was Andy Smith given any specimens of this so-called LLform ?

No not yet, with all the people plugging these interestingly NO ONE will supply Andt the specimens he needs Male and female of both lowland AND highalnd forms...wonder what they are scared of??????

2 points :

- I spoke about carapace shape.What about this ? in particular clypeus width.

From the 2 pictures, you can tell nothing the black of one specimen will make the carapace appear slimmer. so what is the natural range of variation for clypeus width and carapace length/width?

before anyone can start saying they are different the range of variation within the species must be known.

- What are the keys to distinguish Pokies from each others ? When I look at the diagnosis for P. tigrinawesseli (BTS Vol 21, n°3, pp86-87), it is a question of colors. But I repeat, I am no taxonomist, so take it as a remark and not an argument.

for pokes it is leg banding, for most specimens all they need are dried out and you get the banding, subfusca has a couple of yellow spots not really much you can say there is there, the underside is black.

OK, no problem, I also cannot see often 2 P. subfusca that look exactly the same.

neither have I i have seen almost totally black ones, and ones that looked more like P. regalis, ...................they are still the same species

I agree to say it would be very useful to have a field study in Sri Lanka. It is not impossible that, though from the same species, we discover a local population with it's own characteristics, is it ?

Yes a field study would be good, but for these so called lowland forms where is the collection site? and that is the important bit. Most of the P. subfusca from around Nuwary Elia (not spelt properly) are dark with a lesser amount being light,,they are still the same species, they still come from the same eggsac.

See my first comment. I have some difficulty to realize that no one (in particular from UK) could send any specimens of this so-called LF, they are numerous !

NO ONE ANYWHERE has sent specimens

In case Pr Smith did not have any specimens, I am ready to send my single (mated) female, but the goal is absolutely not to have one's name for an hypothetic new species.

you do realise that Andy needs males and females from BOTH forms and they will end up in alchohol?

Bear in mind I retained your words (as those of Soren and other well qualified people), so I know it is highly unlikely that it be a new species. But this do not prevent from discussing about this (not these wonderful species.

True, but since all eyes are turned on Poecilotheria, we have had the RED one, remeber that scam with red colouring?

The so called P. ornata "blau" which turned out to be more like the type than most of the pet trade material and not anything different. People should try to understand about taxonomic features, some times the feature is the fact that it is there not its size,

And we now have these "lowland" subfuscas which only appeared as "lowland" subfuscas after a post by i think Soren, which as i have stated before pointed out they were the largest, and tthen people started asking if anyone had the "lowland" form and then "BANG" they suddenly appeared.

Now go on tell me it was just good timing, the person who first advertised them didnt have them a couple of weeks earlier when he posted up his price list then AFTER that comment and people asking for them there they were "lowland form". There is a thread on the T store with links to the dates etc???

But as i said earlier some people regard me as full of S*** on this subject they are also the ones who spent alot of money buying them, you decide.

With all these wannabe varieties and forms, when a real one does come out no one will be interested and it will vanish.

Ray

[Phil Rea]

With all these wannabe varieties and forms, when a real one does come out no one will be interested and it will vanish.

Ray

Or it will be pillaged from its habitat.

[WayneYasinski]

wow, i never intentionally try to cause dissension when i post but my posts seem to bring that out in people lol...honestly, my biggest concern is that we are continually bombarded by new pet trade species and no-one seems to question why these were never available before..especially with nothing more to back them up then hype...

i try when ever possible to seek the wisdom of those before me and of those who just know better...I'm not saying what they say is gospel but there is truth in their conclusions...nowadays with the Internet, everyone thinks of themselves as an expert and talking with a couple of dealers here in the states, belive themselves to be so. so its always refreshing to hear what you all have to say..

from breeders i have talked to and from what people in the hobby i respect say... there's not much if any, differentiating character ques that solidify or support 2 separate species. besides the pics of lighter and darker subfuscas. i know many conclude so because of buying into the hype and spending the money for the different species but honestly, who wants to admit to getting duped.. so they have to argue for it, otherwise they wasted their money and look kinda foolish.

i was looking for proof for the supposed color forms of P.subfusca and the only proof i have been given is of that, supporting only one form exists..so in that, i thank you..i guess its always easy for a newbie like me to admit being wrong with my conclusions... i only wish those that we respect are able to do so as well....

thanks ray i seem to think i bug you way to much, as well as eric and you guys over here....im just glad, i get a researched answer and not the regurgitated babel someone heard a so called expert say lol.....soo i guess i wont bring up pamphobeteus sp' any time soon.......hahaha
wayne

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

Hi,

From the 2 pictures, you can tell nothing the black of one specimen will make the carapace appear slimmer. so what is the natural range of variation for clypeus width and carapace length/width?

before anyone can start saying they are different the range of variation within the species must be known.

OK.

for pokes it is leg banding, for most specimens all they need are dried out and you get the banding, subfusca has a couple of yellow spots not really much you can say there is there, the underside is black.

So the keys are based on coloration, OK.

Yes a field study would be good, but for these so called lowland forms where is the collection site? and that is the important bit

Yes, crucial point ! Let's imagine we have here a new species (which, I do admit very easily, is highly unlikely). I do not think one second that Pr Smith could describe it just from captive born specimens from unknown breeders

NO ONE ANYWHERE has sent specimens (..). you do realise that Andy needs males and females from BOTH forms and they will end up in alchohol?

I hope Pr Smith will have the ability to examine so called lowland specimens, in case he could not until now. And in case he could not, it's a pity.With several breedings in UK it should be possible, I am sure people will help. If needed you can send me an email (did you get mine ?)

I stop here annoying you.
Best regards and good night !

Alex

[Simon Goldsborough]

Now then this offer still stands, if someone is willing to send a female and male of BOTH the highland and lowland forms, if they are a new species they will be named after the person who sends them. Cant say fairer than that can we?



Ray

you ask for a female lowland I lent you a juv female i bought from Paul Towler at the 2007 BTS show and gave it straight to you for you to look at that i have not herd anything about she should be adult by now since all her sisters are now 7+inch i dont want her breeding with a highland male she was only on loan for you to compare the 2 forms ?? , i can clearly see in the picture there not the same form maybe lowland aint the right name call it light form if it stops all this bickering and where is the pictuers of these 2 forms from the same egg sac maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland since there is a couple of people who have crossed the 2 forms so there is not going to be 2 forms for long i will never mix the 2 forms since , if there can be 2 forms of other speices why not subfusca there markins are clearly not the same ??

[Chris Sainsbury]

i will never mix the 2 forms since , if there can be 2 forms of other speices why not subfusca there markins are clearly not the same ??

Yes that would be almost as bad as cross breeding P. rufilata with P. subfusca wouldn't it!!!!

[Chris Sainsbury]

where is the pictuers of these 2 forms from the same egg sac maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland since there is a couple of people who have crossed the 2 forms so there is not going to be 2 forms for long ??

So you suspect this post to be nothing more than lies?

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=11411&view=findpost&p=79928

Interesting.

[Chris Sainsbury]

@ Ray
Just out of interest. If (and from what I can make out from all this it is a bigish IF) this "low" or "High" version of P. subfusca did turn out to be a new species, would it not be possible that it could infact be what was described as P. bara before it got synominized with P. subfusca? That being the case, wouldn't it have to be reinstated rather than get a new name?
Cheers
Chris

[Ray Gabriel]

Hi Chris,

I was thinking more along the lines of P subfusca and P uniformis.

But as of yet still no specimens and that is where the answer lies

Simon the one you gave me (IMHO) is not mature yet, maybe you are growing yours faster?

Ray

[Steevens DROGUET]

So you suspect this post to be nothing more than lies?

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=11411&view=findpost&p=79928

Interesting.

No. It's just a point of vew about two "forms" or not.
But so YOU suspect the answers of Alexandre BONACCORSO to be nothing more than lies ??

[Chris Sainsbury]

No. It's just a point of vew about two "forms" or not.
But so YOU suspect the answers of Alexandre BONACCORSO to be nothing more than lies ??

My post is based on what I quoted in my reply.
From the post that I quoted in my post, it is stateing that maybe he has mixed bloodline male lowland x highland in his breeding, yet in the post I linked to it clearly states that the two "colour" forms come from a WC female (is it just a presumtion on my part on taking that this WC female was unmated in captivty and went on to produce a fertile eggsac or is this not the case?).

In Alexandre BONACCORSO case he off course can not be accused of lieing at no point as he is clearly stateing his thoughts based in his posts.
But if these two forms can be found in the same eggsac from a WC female that produced a fertile eggsac in captivity, after not being mated in captivity then surely the arguement is void or?
One thing of interest though. After keeping these "two forms" pure what have been the results from the captive breeding? Have the offspring also all been either one or the other, or has there also been any sign of a mix?

Cheers
Chris

[Simon Goldsborough]

i have had roughly 80 lowland p subfusca slings and juvs from differant sacs from the same person 3 from another from seperate sacs and not 1 has looked like the common highland form i curantly have in germany 50% of 2 lowland sacs 1 of my own with my good friend paul towler containing 86n1's 10 eggs still to develop or duds ,3 more females ready to mate a communal group of 24 2.5inch juvs they grow fastish males mature quite big my largest was 7.5 inch i have not seen a mature male of the highland form more than 5.5 inch mature all my mature males have been around 6.5-7.5inch leg span easy to breed and have around 90-100 eggs in each sac i have yet to breed the common highland form that will happen later this year we will see if they will produce sacs in the same conditions as the lowland , i have tried to keep my lowlands cool but they dont like it just hide away all together for the warmth , i feed my spiders what ever they will take since in the wild they will do they same eat till there full not just 1 or 2 bugs every 10-14days gravid females get pinkies