a blue P.subfusca????

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

In Alexandre BONACCORSO case he off course can not be accused of lieing at no point as he is clearly stateing his thoughts based in his posts.

Cheers Chris.
I'd just like to understand (if there's something to understand)
Alex

[Chris Sainsbury]

Hi

i have had roughly 80 lowland p subfusca slings and juvs from differant sacs from the same person

How many sacs?

3 from another from seperate sacs

3 spiders from 3 different sacs?

and not 1 has looked like the common highland form

Did you see all the spiderlings that were produced in these sacs?
If not how are you sure there were no other variants in them?
If the two forms can indeed be found in one sac in the wild, then can the breeding of the two same forms together go to produce all same form spidlings even if there was a mix at the start?

form i curantly have in germany 50% of 2 lowland sacs 1 of my own with my good friend paul towler containing 86n1's 10 eggs still to develop or duds ,3 more females ready to mate a communal group of 24 2.5inch juvs

No use to the descussion if you have not seen the results yet. Saying that though, at what stage of development can you see the differences?

they grow fastish males mature quite big my largest was 7.5 inch i have not seen a mature male of the highland form more than 5.5 inch mature all my mature males have been around 6.5-7.5inch leg span

Growth depends on heat and food if I remember right. for an example:-
Cyriopagopus sp. "blue" males can be mature within a year yet I still have a juv that is almost 2 years old. Again concerning this species the vast majority of males I have seen have been quite small when compared to an example that I saw in the wild which was immensely larger. Adult male size is in my humble oppinion a bit of a none starter as it is so varieable in the same species let alone different species if they are so closely related to each other.

easy to breed and have around 90-100 eggs in each sac i have yet to breed the common highland form that will happen later this year we will see if they will produce sacs in the same conditions as the lowland

so what are the differences in conditions that you are keeping them in at the moment? If they do produce fertile sacs the same what can you tell from this? If they don't what can you tell from this?

i have tried to keep my lowlands cool but they dont like it just hide away all together for the warmth

Sorry have to ask but do spiders huddle to keep warm?

i feed my spiders what ever they will take since in the wild they will do they same eat till there full not just 1 or 2 bugs every 10-14days gravid females get pinkies

Not too sure what this tells us in regards to the two "forms"

Cheers
Chris

[Steevens DROGUET]

So you suspect this post to be nothing more than lies?

http://www.the-t-store.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=11411&view=findpost&p=79928

Interesting.

In Alexandre BONACCORSO case he off course can not be accused of lieing at no point as he is clearly stateing his thoughts based in his posts.

I was refering to this part :

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your point of view.
Some (reliable) people have tried to "cross" these 2 so-called forms, and did never succeed. Do you have more informations about that ?

Cheers,
Alex

[Steevens DROGUET]

Growth depends on heat and food if I remember right. for an example:-
Cyriopagopus sp. "blue" males can be mature within a year yet I still have a juv that is almost 2 years old. Again concerning this species the vast majority of males I have seen have been quite small when compared to an example that I saw in the wild which was immensely larger. Adult male size is in my humble oppinion a bit of a none starter as it is so varieable in the same species let alone different species if they are so closely related to each other.

The problem must not be seeing like this, but like this :
All the males who looks like "lowland form" grown faster and come bigger than the "highland"

Not too sure what this tells us in regards to the two "forms"

Cheers
Chris

He told that before someone ask him if they are keep in the same condition. And before someone will say that if the look differents, it's because they don't eat the same thing...

[Chris Sainsbury]

Cheers Chris.
I'd just like to understand (if there's something to understand)
Alex

Hi
Me too and I can quite clearly see and understand the way of your thinking.
IMHO from your photos they do indeed look quite different in colouration. If it wasn't for Thomas's remarks about finding both forms in a WC eggsac I would too tend to think otherwise.
I am not so sure if the markings are different though which I am lead to believe is an important thing when looking at identifing a Poecilotheria?
So a possible new species I would really not like to even hazzerd a guess either way (even if I could make a guess lol).

All the best
Chris

[Phil Rea]

Hi Ray,

Thank you for your point of view.
Some (reliable) people have tried to "cross" these 2 so-called forms, and did never succeed. Do you have more informations about that ?

Cheers,
Alex

Hi Alex,

When you say 'cross', what exactly do you mean? Did the spiders mate or did they refuse to mate or show no interest? Did they produce sacs that were infertile or were no sacs produced from any successful matings?

What exactly happened?

Phil.

[Steevens DROGUET]

Hi Alex,

When you say 'cross', what exactly do you mean? Did the spiders mate or did they refuse to mate or show no interest? Did they produce sacs that were infertile or were no sacs produced from any successful matings?

What exactly happened?

Phil.

Mating attempts. The spiders refuse to mate.

[Chris Sainsbury]

I was refering to this part :

Like I already said why would he lie? If someone told him that, they told him that. I'm not quite sure where it comes from that I have said I do not believe anyone?????

[Phil Rea]

Mating attempts. The spiders refuse to mate.

Interesting. Thanks Steevens

Someone should get some adults of these to Andy Smith by the sounds of it.

I haven't been keeping up with the pokie scene, but are their ventral leg markings the same for both supposed forms?

[Chris Sainsbury]

The problem must not be seeing like this, but like this :
All the males who looks like "lowland form" grown faster and come bigger than the "highland"

And were they all kept at the same temps?

He told that before someone ask him if they are keep in the same condition. And before someone will say that if the look differents, it's because they don't eat the same thing...

And were they all kept at the same temps?

Mating attempts. The spiders refuse to mate

How many mating attemps?
How many different males and females were used?
Did the same males and females go on and mate and produce fertile eggsacs with their own 'colour forms'?

[Steevens DROGUET]

I am not so sure if the markings are different though which I am lead to believe is an important thing when looking at identifing a Poecilotheria?

Of course not. The markings are the same.
Markings are actually the way to differenciate the Poecilotheria species. But maybe there is something more ? Where start different between two species ? A big different ? A small differente ?

[Steevens DROGUET]

And were they all kept at the same temps??

Oh I didn't know that the temperature change the size that can reached adults tarantulas (both males and females)...

And were they all kept at the same temps?

I didn't know that temperatures change the color of tarantulas too...

How many mating attemps?
How many different males and females were used?
Did the same males and females go on and mate and produce fertile eggsacs with their own 'colour forms'?

I will let Alex answer exactly

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

If it wasn't for Thomas's remarks about finding both forms in a WC eggsac I would too tend to think otherwise.

@ Chris :
With all respect due to Thomas, I asked him for some photos of his 4 sister females. He accepted very kindly to send some when he can.

When you say 'cross', what exactly do you mean? Did the spiders mate or did they refuse to mate or show no interest? Did they produce sacs that were infertile or were no sacs produced from any successful matings?

What exactly happened?

@ Phil :
This is the tricky point.
AFAIK, and as said Steevens, no matings could ever be observed (in one case though, an infertile sac was produced). But I admit we may be wrong, more attempts are needed. And I can read that some breeders tell the opposite. So I cannot say anything for sure.

Here is exactly what I could observe :
When I placed a so called highland male with a so called lowland female, the male started it courtship, then the female went out of her hollow cork, but went back in very quickly. I let them together for 2 weeks. I could never observe any sperm web in the tank. I pulled the male out. Then I got Simon's male that I placed with the same female and let them together. I could never see any courtship, and no sperm web in the tank either. But when I pulled the male out, he made a sperm web. I replaced him with the female for 2 days, then pulled it out. New sperm web the same night.
In case this female would laid a fertile eggsac, I agree it would be difficult to say anything. However, I am leading to think she mated with the so called lowland male only.

The 2 so called forms have no ventral leg markings (entirely black)

Best regards,
Alex

[Alexandre BONACCORSO]

I'd just like to add this :
What would lead me to think both "forms" would not cross is the following thing : although we can see polymorphism within so called highland specimens, so called lowland ones are all identical. And I could never see one specimen that would look like so called highland and lowland at the same time.
But this is perhaps silly thinking, I agree.

[Simon Goldsborough]

Hi

How many sacs?

3 spiders from 3 different sacs?

Did you see all the spiderlings that were produced in these sacs?
If not how are you sure there were no other variants in them?
If the two forms can indeed be found in one sac in the wild, then can the breeding of the two same forms together go to produce all same form spidlings even if there was a mix at the start?

No use to the descussion if you have not seen the results yet. Saying that though, at what stage of development can you see the differences?

Growth depends on heat and food if I remember right. for an example:-
Cyriopagopus sp. "blue" males can be mature within a year yet I still have a juv that is almost 2 years old. Again concerning this species the vast majority of males I have seen have been quite small when compared to an example that I saw in the wild which was immensely larger. Adult male size is in my humble oppinion a bit of a none starter as it is so varieable in the same species let alone different species if they are so closely related to each other.

so what are the differences in conditions that you are keeping them in at the moment? If they do produce fertile sacs the same what can you tell from this? If they don't what can you tell from this?

Sorry have to ask but do spiders huddle to keep warm?

Not too sure what this tells us in regards to the two "forms"

Cheers
Chris

i have had lowland subfusca from 6 differant sacs (differant mothers only 2 had the same farther ) i have a full sac here now at n1's so far i have yet to see any that look differant from the same sac from lowland form this year i will have around 6 lowland female to breed then what ever come back from the males i have loaned out so i should have around 400 lowland slings this year if not more and i doubt any will look like highland but we will soon see , i have seen a good number of the slings that paul towler has produced and none have looked differant they all look the same , i would like to see the moults and pictures of these so called lowland form from a wc highland female ? i have seen a variaty in colour in the highland but not in the lowland form , groth rate dont always go on food and heat since i have had a p metallica male mature 23 months from sling he was fed the same as his brothers and the same temps they all matured around 14-16 months my lowland subfusca males all kept the same fed&temps the same all matured at differant times 11 to 16 months all big male my singa blues have also took around 16-18 months to mature temps high and lots of food ?? i have only had 1 male highland subfusca and he was kept the same as the lowland he matured at 11 months old and only small 5inch where my lowlands have all been big only 1 lowland male matured at 6.5 inch mybe bigger the others have been 7-7.5inch also dont look like the highland male once you have both forms in front of you you can see the differance between the 2 forms i do have both forms of both sexes mature and juvs , spiders will huddle together to prevent the loss of body heat since they are cold blooded this just tells us the lowland form likes warm conditions also from what i have been told the lowland form was collected around the knuckels range so its not un-known where they came from just needs some one to have a look around ,