a blue P.subfusca????

[Malcolm Potts]

Quick question for Ray

You have made it clear in this thread that Pococki=smithi and bara=subfusca, but in all of my older books with pictures of P.bara - they in no way resemble subfusca? and would appear to be more like smithi? I know you are correct - I just wonder how these books are so consistantly wrong.

The best example I can think of this off the top my head is Ron Baxter's book.

Mal.

[Ray Gabriel]

so basically at the moment there are 15 species of Poecilotheria recognised by taxonomists.
these being
fasciata, formosa, striata, miranda, metallica, regails, smithi, hanumavilasunica, ornata, pederseni, pococki, rufilata, tigrinawesseli, uniformis, subfusca.
all originating from india and sri lanka, is it possible that if this genus was revised that some of these species be synominised or diagnosed as sub species or varients ie for arguments sake Poecilotheria pederseni and Poecilotheria pederseni var. smithi.??????

No pococki was synonymised with smithi ages ago, Kirk described smithi, Charpentier described pockocki Kirk was published first, so smithi is the valid name ICZN rules, amazingly in a book published in 2006 years after the synonymy P. pococki was still called a valid species, it is amazing how long something can sink in even when it is published elsewhere and the information is avaliable on the net = World Spider Catalogue,

uniformis is currently unknown, so only 13 sp, none of which will be synonymised (AFAIK) and for some stupid reason the powers that be are saying there will be NO subspecies in Theraphosid spiders.................ok for the rest of the natural world but not theraphosids

i would be more than will to look over this genus and give a comparision to Andys diagnosis. it would be fun if nothing else.

Wouldnt you need to get 20+ years of theraphosid taxonomy under your belt and examine all the Poecilotheria specimens that Andy has done (and is still doing, and get all the input from the breeders/collectors etc first) before you could give a waranted comparison?

[Phil Rea]

..and apparently this one

[wesley flower]

so basically at the moment there are 15 species of Poecilotheria recognised by taxonomists.
these being
fasciata, formosa, striata, miranda, metallica, regails, smithi, hanumavilasunica, ornata, pederseni, pococki, rufilata, tigrinawesseli, uniformis, subfusca.
all originating from india and sri lanka, is it possible that if this genus was revised that some of these species be synominised or diagnosed as sub species or varients ie for arguments sake Poecilotheria pederseni and Poecilotheria pederseni var. smithi.??????

i would be more than will to look over this genus and give a comparision to Andys diagnosis. it would be fun if nothing else.

[Phil Rea]

They are all mature adult males in this group - and as there only seems to be their sisters to mate with - I will let you have a couple for the pickle jar, But even the prospect of calling my favourite spider Poec.pottsi will not make me pickle any of my ladies.

You will need to forward me an address.

Mal.

Mal, if I had an adult female, I would forward her to Andy Smith immediately, just to have a poke named P. pottsi

I know a man who can,

Ill have a word with him

Ray

Excellent. That would solve the mystery once and for all

Wouldn't have to pickle them either

Ray and all
what are the taxonomical differences in the genus Poecilotheria? what is different in each individual ie to tell apart P. smithi and P. pederseni and all other species in the genus.

are there any web sites or books around that are basically and identification guide for all/any Theraphisids like the colins feild guide for spiders based on the native spiders of the uk and europe (dont quote me it been years since i read this book)

i know in araneomorphs some are so identical you need to id them on epigyne structure, palp structure (males) and in some sp ie Dysdera to differentiate D. erythina and D. crocata you use the spines on femur iv.

i would love to know the info requsted above
many thanks wes

Nope. Closest are Andy Smith's 3 books. When his fabled Pokie Book comes out, then that will be the pokie bible, and the new Baboon Spiders book will be the same for the African theraphosids.

[wesley flower]

Ray and all
what are the taxonomical differences in the genus Poecilotheria? what is different in each individual ie to tell apart P. smithi and P. pederseni and all other species in the genus.

are there any web sites or books around that are basically and identification guide for all/any Theraphisids like the colins feild guide for spiders based on the native spiders of the uk and europe (dont quote me it been years since i read this book)

i know in araneomorphs some are so identical you need to id them on epigyne structure, palp structure (males) and in some sp ie Dysdera to differentiate D. erythina and D. crocata you use the spines on femur iv.

i would love to know the info requsted above
many thanks wes

[wesley flower]

dont try to mix up colour and pattern you will only confuse yourself.

easily done my friend lol

[Malcolm Potts]

not exactly slings were they Mal? as they sat in Denmark for a couple of months till the weather got warmer before they could come across.............. and didnt you want the smallest one as a better chance of being female?

They looked like slings to me - hardly juveniles Ray? Anyway - both were immediately identified as males.



Are they mature when you say adult? if they are going i will pass them onto Andy you do realise they will be pickled? cheers

Ray

They are all mature adult males in this group - and as there only seems to be their sisters to mate with - I will let you have a couple for the pickle jar, But even the prospect of calling my favourite spider Poec.pottsi will not make me pickle any of my ladies.

You will need to forward me an address.

Mal.

[Ray Gabriel]

to DNA testing, then we will be none the wiser.

I know a man who can,

Ill have a word with him

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

sorry to quote you phil i know you are not the first to say this, but i have read that the main way to distinguish species of poecilotheria being the ventral leg markings etc, if this is not using colour and patterning what is?

you can tell the species without colour, even really old specimens once they start to dry out a bit from the alchohol will show some of the pattern, therefore you can ID the species, but the leg pattern is NOT the only way there are other taxonomical features which can help.

OH and if the specimen is DRIED its even better all you have to do is turn it over.

dont try to mix up colour and pattern you will only confuse yourself.

[Ray Gabriel]

Interestingly - by far the most expensive of which are a couple of "normal" slings bought from Ray - dealers making money???

not exactly slings were they Mal? as they sat in Denmark for a couple of months till the weather got warmer before they could come across.............. and didnt you want the smallest one as a better chance of being female?

I have a communal group of adult male "lowland form" subfusca - if you would like any for study Ray?? but no-one is getting any of my ladies until they die of old age. Mal.

Are they mature when you say adult? if they are going i will pass them onto Andy you do realise they will be pickled? cheers

Ray

[Ray Gabriel]

Ray
Wise words young padiwan, the force is indeed strong with you!



Mark
P.S Nice use of the word old guard, can I claim that as my invention - please

All yours master

[Ray Gabriel]

was the male seen? if so was he the same varient as the female?

wild caught if i remember correctly

true line breeding is a form of selective breeding but close relatives are not used ie not mother-son or sibling mmatings more cousins and auntie- nephew etc

EHHH NO I have worked on 2 of my own strains of corn snakes, the last thing you do is use widely related material, you use the closest related amterial possible so you know there is a least some of the gene in what you are breeding. Go and see how you get an albino from 2 heterozygus specimens and you will see what i mean

sorry kosher is a hebrew word meaning fit to describe a peice of food as 'fit' to eat (jewish dietry laws). i used the word to illustrate that crossing is not good and possible against the law of nature in some humans eyes.

You were refering to hybrids

[Simon Goldsborough]

wc highland female subfusca , cb lownad female with a male the female are the same size

[Phil Rea]

sorry but it had to come at some point even if it is rather crap.

Which one are you? (come on think about it)

Not entirely sure what you are saying here Chris. Would have been easier if you just told me which one you think I am and why (or maybe if the pictures were bigger it might have helped )

Elder, old guard, noob, and spider t wearing saddo? Hmmm...

sorry to quote you phil i know you are not the first to say this, but i have read that the main way to distinguish species of poecilotheria being the ventral leg markings etc, if this is not using colour and patterning what is?

i would love to get a chance to go over some deads of the Poecilotheria genus remove all the pile hair etc and have someone id them, ( i would love to give it a go at this myself if anyone is perpared to send me some)

so if i am not mistaken.........colourings and patterning are a taxonomic tool (along with alot of other factors)

if i am wrong (a few beers down the road) can someone please explain

Feel free to quote me Wes. I did say it

Patterning and colour are not the same thing though, and spiders can change colour dependant on how far from a moult they are. Have you seen a pic of a brown G. pulchra? I have, and after moulting, it was the normal silky black